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#26 2010-11-24 20:09:58

DoK
Member
Registered: 2010-11-24
Posts: 28

Re: Israel Hiking map

Well, currently no one is using (=rendering) this great feature so I'll give the smarters to come the option by filling name in relation and will add names in the way were it is needed to get a proper service now.
Nothing for the majority of this forum reader to worry about since I'm mostly interested in off-road trails.

Last edited by DoK (2010-11-24 20:15:33)

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#27 2010-11-24 20:13:18

talkat
Member
Registered: 2009-03-06
Posts: 381

Re: Israel Hiking map

dimka wrote:

There are problems with the rendering of existing osmc:symbol 's.  So the INT, the Golan and the Jesus trail are rendered incorrectly. From the details here I understand that "orange" is supported only for backgrounds, and "green_lower" isn't supported as well.

First we need to decide whether we use horizontal shields (*_bar)
or vertical shields (*_stripe)

In any case, if all versions are supported on all the colors, then it would be best, and most helpful to other standards (read: other countries' trail authorities)

talkat.

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#28 2010-11-24 20:21:49

talkat
Member
Registered: 2009-03-06
Posts: 381

Re: Israel Hiking map

DoK wrote:

Please note -
name (the tag) in relation is never rendered (as far as I see at this point).
Please add name (the tag) in the way itself if you wish for it to appear on the maps.
A good example would be Shvil Israel which probably "deserve" to be shown not only on hiking maps.

I would argue against this.
The name in the relation is rendered where the relation is rendered. e.g. in Lonvia's map.

Mapnik shouldn't render route relation names, as it's not a route (e.g. Hike&Bike) renderer.

Shvil Israel is an exception, as its the flagship trail of the country.
MAYBE also name Jesus Trail and Shvil HaGolan.
But not TLV-YM-Bike-Route.

I don't see a point in naming each track and path.
Not to mention that they are broken into the smallest segments.
These segments are reused over and over where the same segment is used in several routes.

That's one of the biggest strength of using relations: A segment can belong to as many relations as you want.


P.S. Welcome back to OSM! ;-)

talkat.

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#29 2010-11-24 20:25:36

dimka
Member
Registered: 2010-04-01
Posts: 257

Re: Israel Hiking map

talkat wrote:

First we need to decide whether we use horizontal shields (*_bar)
or vertical shields (*_stripe)

I vote for vertical, it seems to be the "official" one, according to here, here and also the text at the back of the ITC maps.

dimka

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#30 2010-11-24 20:31:34

talkat
Member
Registered: 2009-03-06
Posts: 381

Re: Israel Hiking map

dimka wrote:
talkat wrote:

First we need to decide whether we use horizontal shields (*_bar)
or vertical shields (*_stripe)

I vote for vertical

Ok, fine by me.
Who'll go over the 55+ relations we have and change them to vertical?... ;-)

P.S. Mapa's online topo map uses horizontal.
I wonder whether they are lurking here, and will follow suit and change their online topo maps to vertical...

talkat.

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#31 2010-11-24 20:33:27

dimka
Member
Registered: 2010-04-01
Posts: 257

Re: Israel Hiking map

When the renderer supports this, I have no problem writing a conversion script.
Until then, no point in changing anything.

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#32 2010-11-24 21:19:55

DoK
Member
Registered: 2010-11-24
Posts: 28

Re: Israel Hiking map

talkat wrote:

I don't see a point in naming each track and path.
Not to mention that they are broken into the smallest segments.
These segments are reused over and over where the same segment is used in several routes.

Most MTB single tracks are only designated by it's name and a line of clear ground when you get there.
All but few of the ITC footpaths are currently forbidden for MTB and from another POV few of the hundreds MTB tracks are marked.

hikebikemap also renders relation but not the names (and for some reason osmc:symbol=black:white:black_bar)

Update: lonvia does not render names in relations.

Last edited by DoK (2010-11-24 21:34:07)

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#33 2010-11-24 21:46:03

talkat
Member
Registered: 2009-03-06
Posts: 381

Re: Israel Hiking map

DoK wrote:

Most MTB single tracks are only designated by it's name and a line of clear ground when you get there.

Yes, and that's why these ways are named.
I also tend to add "Single" to the name (both Hebrew and English)
But these are irrelevant to this discussion. It's just like any other named way.
Even where the INT goes over a named way, the way's name prevails.


DoK wrote:

All but few of the ITC footpaths are currently forbidden for MTB and from another POV few of the hundreds MTB tracks are marked.

Ok.
I think this discussion is how to have maps that show shields and colored ways according to markings in real life.
For this, wherever there's a colored marking, we'd like to mimic it on the map.
It's irrelevant whether the way is a single, residential, INT, mtb (or even the Red Camel under RTG... ;-) )

DoK wrote:

hikebikemap also renders relation but not the names

I believe that rendering the relation's name in hikebikemap wouldn't work very well.
hikebikemap is raster based, so what would you do when a segment belongs to several different routes?
On an interactive map you could have pop-ups with all the names of a specific segment, or take a different approach, like Lonvia's Routes Pop-up.

talkat.

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#34 2010-11-24 22:09:04

DoK
Member
Registered: 2010-11-24
Posts: 28

Re: Israel Hiking map

talkat wrote:

Yes, and that's why these ways are named.
I also tend to add "Single" to the name (both Hebrew and English)

So we agree MTB singles are to be named outside the relation.
It should only be done also were relation are used (Einav, Masua-Ajur-Masua, Adulam, K20, haruvit) and we have a pretty good solution.

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#35 2010-11-24 22:12:47

DoK
Member
Registered: 2010-11-24
Posts: 28

Re: Israel Hiking map

Update from Colin (the hikebike man) -
Black trail marks will be supported soon
INT marking will not be supported in the seen future

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#36 2010-11-24 22:21:37

talkat
Member
Registered: 2009-03-06
Posts: 381

Re: Israel Hiking map

DoK wrote:
talkat wrote:

Yes, and that's why these ways are named.
I also tend to add "Single" to the name (both Hebrew and English)

So we agree MTB singles are to be named outside the relation.
It should only be done also were relation are used (Einav, Masua-Ajur-Masua, Adulam, K20, haruvit) and we have a pretty good solution.

When a way should have a name - Let it be named so. :-)

As I understand it, Einav and Adulam and Diefenbaker are ok, and should be named.

K20, Tsfonit, Dromit - Maybe, I'm not so sure...
(Tsfonit and Dromit are slang names, but then again so are many of the singles, which are named, so I really don't know.)

How do you feel about these guidelines?

talkat.

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#37 2010-11-24 22:23:33

talkat
Member
Registered: 2009-03-06
Posts: 381

Re: Israel Hiking map

DoK wrote:

Update from Colin (the hikebike man) -
Black trail marks will be supported soon
INT marking will not be supported in the seen future

I changed the INT to:
osmc:symbol=blue:orange:blue_bar:white_lower

It seems to be supported by Nop's icons, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed...

talkat.

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#38 2010-11-24 22:29:42

DoK
Member
Registered: 2010-11-24
Posts: 28

Re: Israel Hiking map

גהנום, גן-עדן, פילו, מחוץ לגדר, בתוך הגדר, תותחים
it's all slang.
It would have been nice if mtb:name was supported somewhere ...
I'm good with this guidelines with a remaining issue of INT.
It's a lot of work but IMO off-road INT parts should be named.

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#39 2010-11-24 22:45:09

talkat
Member
Registered: 2009-03-06
Posts: 381

Re: Israel Hiking map

DoK wrote:

גהנום, גן-עדן, פילו, מחוץ לגדר, בתוך הגדר, תותחים
it's all slang.
It would have been nice if mtb:name was supported somewhere ...
I'm good with this guidelines with a remaining issue of INT.

Yes, I already said that slang is already used in named singles, and I'm ok with it (although, I would add "Single")

Hopefully, someone will come up with a renderer that supports this.

DoK wrote:

It's a lot of work but IMO off-road INT parts should be named.

Many parts of it are already named.
It shouldn't be a problem for someone with basic scripting knowledge to go over the relation, look for (warning, geek pseudo code!)
((highway=track || highway=path) && (name == null))
and set name, name:en, name:he, name:ru, name:am.

talkat.

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#40 2010-11-25 12:34:38

clickilan
Member
Registered: 2010-10-01
Posts: 5

Re: Israel Hiking map

Can anyone provide good examples (with link if possible) of naming schemes for "simun shvilim" and bike singles, bike paths in israel?

Also, is hikebikemap.de searchable or have a "jump to location" feature?

ilan

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#41 2010-11-25 21:32:52

talkat
Member
Registered: 2009-03-06
Posts: 381

Re: Israel Hiking map

talkat wrote:

I changed the INT to:
osmc:symbol=blue:orange:blue_bar:white_lower

It seems to be supported by Nop's icons, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed...

I've just confirmed with Colin.
Although the above is correct according to the osmc:symbol documentation, and Nop's icons,
his hikebikemap doesn't support this.

So we're back to the drawing board...

I thought about changing it to:
osmc:symbol=blue:blue:white_bar

Which would render a blue background, with a white bar (sort of reverse colors from a blue_bar)
It would make the INT distinct (the only one with a non-white background), and will keep the blue-white colors.
But white_bar isn't supported as well...


Thoughts?

osmc:symbol=blue:white:blue_bar
like any other blue troute?


talkat.

Last edited by talkat (2010-11-25 21:39:38)

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#42 2010-11-26 19:10:32

DoK
Member
Registered: 2010-11-24
Posts: 28

Re: Israel Hiking map

Of the currently available options I like the current result in Lonvia which is equivalent to-
osmc:symbol = blue:orange:blue_bar
simply because its unique and eye catching.
Any appearance of white in a dual color symbol will not pop up to the eye.

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#43 2010-11-26 19:21:51

talkat
Member
Registered: 2009-03-06
Posts: 381

Re: Israel Hiking map

DoK wrote:

Of the currently available options I like the current result in Lonvia which is equivalent to-
osmc:symbol = blue:orange:blue_bar
simply because its unique and eye catching.
Any appearance of white in a dual color symbol will not pop up to the eye.

I'm not sure hikebikemap support this, but you can try.

If you change anything in the INT osmc:symbol, please keep the "note" tag that has the correct value (not yet supported...)
i.e. osmc:symbol=blue:orange:blue_bar:white_lower

talkat.

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#44 2010-11-27 09:31:40

DoK
Member
Registered: 2010-11-24
Posts: 28

Re: Israel Hiking map

Ok I'll change it and will check later this evening.
Generally speaking I propose to use hikebike as the renderer to tag to when we tag for the renderer.

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#45 2010-11-27 12:43:14

Nop
Moderator
Registered: 2009-01-26
Posts: 2,656

Re: Israel Hiking map

Hi!

As I can see, Colin has already advised you pretty well on the handling of the tagging scheme.

The first color may be rendered so you are able to follow different colored hiking routes sharing the same ways or crossings even if it's all too small to show trailblazing signs.

If you want a quick feedback on how your tagging might turn out on a map, you don't need to wait for online maps to update. You could also use MapComposer to create a Garmin map or a bitmap map (vio Kosmos) yourself. osmc: stands for OSM Composer, it knows all the available symbols. Unfortunately, the UI is in German only ATM.

For networks, you really should use the established network=nwn/rwn/lwn.Your current Wiki entry is in contradiction with established tagging schemes:

            network     itc/kkl     The authority that maintains the route

- Network is intended for the level of network (by distance, importance) regardless of who marked the trail. The english terms are also used in other countries e.g. in Germany
- Operator is used for the authority that maintains the route.

See http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Walk … #Relations

You are starting fresh here and you have the chance to make it easy. So I would recommend you don't introduce contradictions where currently there are none.

As for the missing symbols: The list is extended as needed. There have been several requests for orange symbols recently, so I guess it needs extending. Unfortunately, it is not quite as easy as drawing the rectangle. The osmc:symbol is primarily intended to create vector maps with trailblazing for Garmin devices. To do this, every symbol needs a Garmin ID that is displayed on all devices and not already used by Garmin. Those IDs are getting scarce.

Your symbols definitely are _stripes not _bars. The multicolored case could be done with a _stripe_left in orange or in white. Is that list complete or is that only some examples?

I will have to think about what is the best way to do this.

Nop


Nothing is too difficult for the man who does not have to do it himself...
Projekte: Reit- und Wanderkarte mit Navigation - Kartengenerator Map Composer - GPS Track Editor Track Guru

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#46 2010-11-27 17:15:13

talkat
Member
Registered: 2009-03-06
Posts: 381

Re: Israel Hiking map

Following all the feedback in this thread, and also Lonvia's map (see the routes tab) I suggest we change our standard tagging as follows:

network=nwn/lwn/ncn/lcn/etc.
I suggest we keep this in accordance with the wiki.

operator=itc/kkl
This might change in the future.
I'd put kkl and rtg in the same tag, and itc in a tag of its own, as the itc paints the shields on the routes in all of Israel, no matter if the area is public, under kkl, rtg, or anyone else.


P.S. On a recent count, we have 70 routes.
That's 15 new routes in 4 days!

talkat.

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#47 2010-11-27 18:05:19

talkat
Member
Registered: 2009-03-06
Posts: 381

Re: Israel Hiking map

talkat wrote:

network=nwn/lwn/ncn/lcn/etc.
operator=itc/kkl/rtg

Done.

Most are network=nwn as they had route=hiking
A few are network=ncn, e.g. TLV-JM-Bike-Route

Nes Ziona Scenic is lcn.


Almost all are operator=itc
TLV-JM-Bike-Route is operator=kkl
Please fix where appropriate. (Adulam? Single Einav? Canada Park?)

talkat.

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#48 2010-11-27 20:52:55

valleyofdawn
Member
Registered: 2010-11-14
Posts: 221

Re: Israel Hiking map

For the rest of us, could you post, in a different thread, a clear procedure on how to tag a blazed route into OSM?

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#49 2010-11-27 21:17:31

talkat
Member
Registered: 2009-03-06
Posts: 381

Re: Israel Hiking map

valleyofdawn wrote:

For the rest of us, could you post, in a different thread, a clear procedure on how to tag a blazed route into OSM?

See our wiki here
If it's not clear, let's work on clearing this.


talkat.

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#50 2010-11-27 21:52:23

dimka
Member
Registered: 2010-04-01
Posts: 257

Re: Israel Hiking map

talkat wrote:

See our wiki here
If it's not clear, let's work on clearing this.

1. What is RTG (Sorry for my ignorance)?
2. How to choose lwn/nwn/ncn/lcn etc.
3. How does one tell the operator?

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