Consensus on road numbering and classification?

το διψήφιο πρόθεμα το προτείνω για τις επαρχιακές οδούς μόνο, όχι για τις εθνικές

επίσης στο έγγραφο του 1998 είναι κοινή πρακτική να αναφέρει την αρχική χάραξη ως ΕΟ1, την πιο καινούργια ως ΕΟ1α και διάφορες εναλλακτικές ως ΕΟ1β, εΟ1γ κτλ
το οποίο βρίσκω πολύ καλύτερο από το ΠΕΟ ΝΕΟ

η νέα κατηγοριοποίηση είναι για να βοηθάει δεν μπορώ να καταλάβω πως ακριβώς χάλασα την Λάρισα

You might like to check this document: http://www.egnatia.eu/Files/Adverts/5027_sow.pdf

The map at the end of the document, from Egnatia Odos SA, seems to show evidence that the ISO codes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166-2:GR) are used instead of the TK codes.

i have thought about iso codes before, the problem is there are codes like A1, 01 ,02 etc

what if a newsletter is published abolishing prefectures? as you see they assign letters to regions

maybe we should ask egnatia where they found the map, although is possible they allocated the numbers

Regional units are virtually similar to Prefectures and a lot of prefecture-specific standards still live on today.

At present I cannot think of anything better than ΕΠ. I do not think there is anything wrong about using ΕΠ#, because they are similar to S# (State roads) in the Netherlands and SH# (State highway) in India. I do not believe that there is a need to make any artificial distinction, as long as each list is confined to the prefecture.

In my opinion, I originally retained the road relations for documentation reasons, to track the progress of the mapping, but that was with the 1963 system, before you discovered the 1998 and possibly current system.

i just say iso codes can change with a single newsletter, postal codes dont

i was thinking there is no reason to put letter prefixes like EO and ΕΠ in ref (the only signs with prefixes are motorway like A1,A2 etc), no reason to mess with voice commands

pls consider a different classification, independent from numbers, the current situation is confusing (at least dont make provincial roads secondary, most of them are like minor)

I have suggested the further details, such as my draft at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Amaroussi#Greek_road_hierarchy_review (permanent link: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=User:Amaroussi&oldid=1182147)).

I think population is a bit too broad. Purpose should be considered too.

Until I made the draft on the wiki, I had shown reluctance towards such idea due to the lack of details other than population. Now I have made the draft I have a better idea.

We should not overuse one type of highway for every occurrence of a specific layout, out of respect for the concept of network hierarchy.

It is important not to overuse one type of highway like “primary”, like in Thessaloniki, so that the map is well organised and presented.

The proposal on the wiki needs to be refined further before it gets implemented, to prevent any misunderstandings by future editors.

As long as the discussion is written down in places like the forums or talk-gr, rather than just the IRC, then there will be solid evidence of the changes, and less confusion.

i must admit your table is very confusing as it is, try to make it simpler

my proposal is here:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Greece (under roads in greece)

-as you see its not based completely on population…what else do you mean by purpose?
-primary roads for connecting cities, former prefecture capitals and POI (national airports, major seaports and archaelogical sites like Olympia or Epidavros. Also primary could be the major road(s) in a city (which also serves through traffic)
-secondary for towns (over 2000 on land, over 1000 on islands), municipal seats and rest of POI, also the major road in a town
-tertiary for connecting villages between them or with other roads, also the major road in the village (most provincial roads fall in this category or lower)

if there are roads which serve more traffic than their type should, we can classify them accordingly

i also have done a list of national highways according to 1998 registry:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Greece/National_Highway

i dont reclassify roads without a plan (in Thessaloniki and other cities primary roads serve most of the traffic, thats why they are primary

I think one of the reasons we are not doing this right is that we are constantly thinking about all the possibilities with or without adhering to the system of National and Provincial roads. At the moment, I am thinking that motorroads are far too complicated to be taken seriously, and if that is the case given that the motorroad sign is being used randomly, the trunk roads should represent limited-access highways or main intercity roads in general, with limited access highways being tagged with “motorroad=yes”.

I hope you do not mind me taking a bit of time to think this through before posting a new draft?

as i understand there are 3 possible directions: leave them as they are, make them my way, or your way

i think its wrong to categorize todays roads according to some numbers assigned 50 years ago or more

a trunk road is a term used in the UK, not such thing exists here
other countries use the trunk road tag to label expressways or motorroads (which by definition are a step below motorways)
in Greece it is unclear which roads fall in the motorroad category, so no reason to tag them as such

we can use the trunk road tag to label high-speed roads inferior to motorways (like Orestiada - Ormenio, Kilkis bypass, Thessaloniki - Chalkidona, Chalastra - Polykastro, Ptolemaida - Amyntaio etc) as it is now

Hello,

I am prepared to agree on ending the 1963 system and use the 1998 system only, but that would leave some structuring issues.

I am thinking that non-motorroad EO routes should remain primary by default, but parallel roads, such as the ΕΟ104, or any stub that “goes nowhere” (sic) like ΕΟ65γ, should be secondary. Unnumbered major roads should also be secondary.

At the moment I am thinking more about the structure of the network. I am still thinking about how to address Larissa and Katerini, where there are bypasses around the centres that should be taken into account, unless the bypass has a unique number.

The end structure could be something like Berlin (https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=12/52.5063/13.4083). Towns like Larissa and Katerini could looke a bit like Imola in Italy (https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/44.3503/11.7291), where the roads do not go into the centre if there are bypasses that would otherwise be unnumbered. I know that towns are becoming increasingly interested in keeping motor traffic out of city centres, hence why those bypasses existed in the first place.

Abandoned numbers of the 1963 system could be tagged with the key “old_ref”.

There is no doubt that all the refs in Greece should use the Hellenic alphabet and not the Latin alphabet.

I cannot agree on the postcode system as I have found no evidence of them in government documents. Hence we probably have to stay with ΕΠ for now.

I am for keeping the provincial roads secondary because that is the legal classification by the Greek government and not by me.

However, to allay your concerns, we could give greater focus towards using the surface (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface) and smoothness (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:smoothness) tags on Greek roads: I think that we overlooked the possibility of mapping the road condition, and instead we put the blame on the numbering system, causing lots of problems. The two tags related to the road condition are there for a reason, to warn drivers of the road condition.

this is starting to look like the syriza - eu negotiation (the one is proposing things and the other not want to change a thing)

i thought the postal code system would be nice, but since you disagree i ll make them ΕΠ, not secondary though

i tried to identify these provincial roads in Thrace and Macedonia, and it was challenging (unfinished roads, non-existent roads, unpaved tracks, abandoned villages) and were the road was there was narrow with no lines leading to very small villages, so no traffic

about legal classification…i dont remember the government stating anywhere that we should label them as secondary in openstreetmap

i cant express myself properly about road smoothness

what do you guys think about making major highways green (trunk)? i ve been told navigator software works better with motorways trunk and primaries (giving them much more priority than secondary and tertiary)

motorroads are ambiguous anyway and not officially defined
so this is what i m thinking:

trunk: highways connecting cities (Εθνικές Οδοί)
primary: inferior quality highways + οld national highways (Παλαιές Εθνικές Οδοί)
secondary: roads connecting towns + old provincial roads (Επαρχιακές Οδοί)
tertiary: links to villages

Old national highways should be secondary or primary, depending on how busy it is. That idea would free up primary for “other national roads and major avenues” without too many issues.

thats the idea…if a road is in bad condition or serves less traffic should be degraded

new roads with better characteristics, bypassing cities etc should be trunk, also major urban avenues

ΕΠ should be secondary, except for really bad roads (no lines, narrow, unpaved)

tertiary should be any road that serves more traffic than residential

Revised proposal at: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Amaroussi#Greek_road_hierarchy_review

When I feel better I could do a trial at a town like Larissa or West Athens.

in fact former municipalities have become municipal units, so they are the same
level 8: municipal units (δημοτικές ενότητες)
level 9: municipal/local communities (δημοτικές/τοπικές κοινότητες) *former municipal compartments have become local communities
level 10: village/town/city limits

concerning road classification we should label them according to actual usage and quality, not just because they have a number (e.g. Larisa - Karditsa has no number but should be trunk)
the same goes about lower classes (there are a lot of unnumbered roads connecting towns, which they should be tertiary)

also an other thing: highways being replaced should be degraded (even if the new road isnt completed) e.g. Chalkidona - Edessa old road should be primary (only new parts should be trunk) also Evros Vertical Axis

Highways being replaced should only be downgraded when the corresponding project is complete and open. Downgrading them prior to completion is speculative, something that we do not do on OpenStreetMap.

Όπως βλέπω το έχετε πάρει πολύ “ζεστά”, δυστυχώς δεν μπορώ να συμμετάσχω γιατί είμαι πνιγμένος λόγω δουλειάς.
Αν δω κανένα στραβό όμως, θα μιλήσω :slight_smile:

Γιάννης.

ΥΓ. Αυτά τα Καλλικρατικά ονόματα ποτέ δεν τα χώνεψα, γιαυτό όπου δείτε δικές μου διορθώσεις (παλιές) τα έχω όλα όπως τα έμαθα στο σχολείο. Δήμος, Νομός, Περιφέρεια κλπ.

The content under the section “Greek road hierarchy review” is only relevant to this. Please do not worry about the other sections, as they are old drafts.

Another revision to my proposal.

I think the classification situation is something we need to address first: in a majority of countries (according to this), a given type of road or group of numbers are usually tied to one classification for sake of simplicity. I personally cannot think that I cannot improve further on the proposal that I have refined as of now: to assign National and Provincial roads to more than two categories of road each would just make it too complicated for all of us.