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#1 2012-04-10 10:39:35

Texture Library

Dear all, please try to use new textures from:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Texture_Library

The page is still in developing, a lot of questions open, but thi ist the first shot. Please help to make it better.

Last edited by marek kleciak (2012-04-12 14:56:20)

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#2 2012-04-12 08:06:58

bvbmatze
Member
From: Heidelberg, Germany
Registered: 2011-11-11
Posts: 20
Website

Re: Texture Library

Hi,

marek kleciak wrote:

Please try to use new textures from:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Texture_Library

Great, that's a good start for a texture repository! :-)
Now it's just a small step to allow assigning these seamless facade textures to buildings
via OSM tags, isn't it? Something like building:facade:texture=brick1, roof:texture=tiled1 or similar...

What do you think? There could be just another column in the table at the wiki page for defining the corresponding tag.
An issue might be the storage location of the image files, the wiki is certainly not the most sustainable option. Also the naming should be standardised/identical with the tag-name,
so that any 3D viewers can evaluate the tag and use the images from the repository accordingly.

Cheers,
Matthias

Last edited by bvbmatze (2012-04-12 08:09:24)

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#3 2012-04-12 09:56:00

Re: Texture Library

Hello bvbmatze,
good ideas, agreed wink
Please collect ideas for the naming. It´s not so easy. In particular, if we want keep it simple. I believe, we need something like  texture=brick12345, because there are damn lot of different brick types. What about colors? The same patterns have many different colors...

The page is just the beginning: I think it´s important in the next days to generate some nice examples for the community, because the most user can not SEE what for fantastic possibilities are associated with it.

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#4 2012-04-12 12:36:02

Re: Texture Library

I think the Texture Library deserves a separate topic. So I created one. Marek you might wish to extend the first message in the topic.

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#5 2012-04-12 18:03:28

Re: Texture Library

Well,
we have 50 textures in 3 days.
We should think about server and namig of textures.
At the moment it is my free improvisation.

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#6 2012-04-12 20:23:24

Tordanik
Super Senior Member
From: Germany
Registered: 2008-06-17
Posts: 1,863
Website

Re: Texture Library

With the rapid progress of the texture repository, it's high time for me to get textures to work in OSM2World. smile

bvbmatze wrote:

Now it's just a small step to allow assigning these seamless facade textures to buildings
via OSM tags, isn't it? Something like building:facade:texture=brick1, roof:texture=tiled1 or similar...

What do you think? There could be just another column in the table at the wiki page for defining the corresponding tag.

We can try something like this, but I have some comments regarding the tagging.

First, I do not think it is a good idea to have tags referring to individual image files. Instead, an ID should refer to a group of image files. So if an user uploads another texture depicting the same paving stone pattern (with different resolution, different lighting, optimized for grayscale rendering or whatever), these should be associated with the same id.
The motivation for for not just replacing the existing image with the "better" texture is that "better" depends on the application - some time in the future you might even want to be able to upload .pov files for raytracing, or an intentionally cartoon-styled set of textures, or any other texture variants. But this should not affect the OSM database. Instead, the tagging just refers to the image group, and management of the variants is handled by the image repository.
In the short term, this means that we can of course start with another column in the table at the wiki, but with the understanding that the ids listed there are not supposed to be uniquely referring to a single image file.

Second, the tagging should use key names consistent with the normal material tagging. One option is to always append a "texture" to the more abstract surface description, which would produce roof:material:texture, building:material:texture, surface:texture and so on.

An issue might be the storage location of the image files, the wiki is certainly not the most sustainable option.

It's clearly not an ideal solution, it just has the simple advantage of being available right now. A more elaborate solution would be nice, but somebody would have to set it up and commit to maintaining it.

marek kleciak wrote:

What about colors? The same patterns have many different colors...

Yes, we probably need support for that, too. One option might be to use a grayscale texture for the pattern, and apply a shader to combine it with the base color from the building/roof:colour=* tags.  I would need to try this to find out whether it looks good.

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#7 2012-04-12 20:50:29

Re: Texture Library

This project is pretty big. I think, it would be great to speak about possible solutions in the small group of interested experts. Maybe end of may? The next questions are:

1- Transparency of textures
2- Multitexturing
3- Cooperation in developing of software

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#8 2012-04-12 21:16:43

Re: Texture Library

After topic split I’m answers hire even if it is connected with my plugin.

Example building with windows textures:
cloneheight3.th.png

newtextures2.th.png

Currently textures in my plugin are assigned to buildings using tags: “building:material=*” or “roof.material=*”.
For example building on the right is tagged as building.material=stone and tree building on left as building.material=birck. If there is more than one texture for building material, the display one is chosen randomly from texture set assign for this material. Of course in future it will be possible to make some more advanced assign using eg colors. But I am strongly against to put inside osm database texture names.

In my opinion wiki page http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Texture_Library sholud conteins all textures and metadata, like texture size in real world (width x hetight) without any connection to osm data.

In other hand you have wiki page: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Kendzi3d/textures Where you can make assigment from osm tag to texture/material.
You can do it this way:
Let's assume that you have new building material named “stone” to which we want assign texture.
You need to create new row to table in section “Key format for building facade” like this:

| “key”                           | “height”  |  “length” | “file key”                               | “file url”
| buildings.facade_stone   |  2          | 2            | any_unique_file_name.pnghttp://url.to.file/

After using option “Load texture from wiki” new texture should appear in plugin.

If you don’t want use wiki page to configure it you can edit configuration inside xml file.
The same example. You want to add new texture to stone material. You need to add this lines to xml:

<textureSet key="buildings.facade_stone">
    <textureData fileKey="/textures/any_unique_file_name.png" height="2.0" width="2.0"/>
</textureSet>

You need to put this lines to file: resources\textureLibraryInternal.xml inside kendzi3d.jar or to file:
"{JOSM_DIR}/plugins/kendzi3d/resources/textureLibraryWiki.xml"
which is created and overwritten after each use of function “Load texture from wiki”

You need to manually download texture to file "{JOSM_DIR}/plugins/kendzi3d/textures/any_unique_file_name.png"

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#9 2012-04-13 07:50:48

Re: Texture Library

The problem with wiki is the restriction: maximum 900 textures in ONE page. If we use wiki, we should divide content into many pages and use texture library only for linking to the subpages.

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#10 2012-04-13 09:06:26

bvbmatze
Member
From: Heidelberg, Germany
Registered: 2011-11-11
Posts: 20
Website

Re: Texture Library

Tordanik wrote:

With the rapid progress of the texture repository, it's high time for me to get textures to work in OSM2World. smile

OSM-3D should also be supporting this rather soon (hopefully) :-)

Tordanik wrote:

First, I do not think it is a good idea to have tags referring to individual image files. Instead, an ID should refer to a group of image files. So if an user uploads another texture depicting the same paving stone pattern (with different resolution, different lighting, optimized for grayscale rendering or whatever), these should be associated with the same id.

Ok, good point, that makes sense. But what happens, if there are various images for a single ID? Is it then in the responsibility of the renderer/viewer which to choose?

Tordanik wrote:

Second, the tagging should use key names consistent with the normal material tagging. One option is to always append a "texture" to the more abstract surface description, which would produce roof:material:texture, building:material:texture, surface:texture and so on.

Ok, we can do it this way. I wasn't aware of the existing material tagging conventions.

kendzi wrote:

But I am strongly against to put inside osm database texture names.
In my opinion wiki page http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Texture_Library sholud conteins all textures and metadata, like texture size in real world (width x hetight) without any connection to osm data.
In other hand you have wiki page: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Kendzi3d/textures Where you can make assigment from osm tag to texture/material.
You can do it this way:
Let's assume that you have new building material named “stone” to which we want assign texture.
You need to create new row to table in section “Key format for building facade” like this: [...]

I am not sure if I get your point, but this seems to me like a solution which is too much tailored for your plugin. (please correct me if I'm wrong :-))
Please don't get me wrong, your tool is brilliant, but regarding the tagging, we should clearly go for a viewer/editor independent solution.

As always, the process of "tagging" a building texture must be as easy as possible for the mapper.
In my opinion, there should be only two easy steps:
1) Looking up a suitable texture in the online repository
2) Tagging the object with the appropriate texture ID

Everything else should be done by the individual renderers and the mapper shouldn't have to care about that.
At least at the moment this is in my opinion enough to start with. In the future, further options on how the facade has to be applied, might be added (e.g. repeating the window templates etc.)

Cheers,
Matthias

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#11 2012-04-13 11:22:22

Re: Texture Library

I have added  a naming rule to the wiki. What do You thing about it? I Think, rules for naming can be helpful for newbies for searching and adding of new elements. I afraid, we have without rules a lot of very similar textures with different names.

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#12 2012-04-13 13:57:58

Re: Texture Library

There [1] i describe the idea of generic texturing. The Question and research possibility is: Is it possible to generate textures such [1] from [2].
Unfortunately is the name of this page not the best. Is it possible to change the name of wiki page without changes of content? I would say, for [1] is the name Generic_textures better than recently used name.


[1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Texture_table
[2] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Texture_Library

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#13 2012-04-13 22:41:39

Re: Texture Library

There are some good ideas about naming of textures. Please discuss about it, there are already some people ready to make textures. The definition of naming is here very important.

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#14 2012-04-14 20:57:33

Re: Texture Library

Tordanik wrote:

First, I do not think it is a good idea to have tags referring to individual image files. Instead, an ID should refer to a group of image files. So if an user uploads another texture depicting the same paving stone pattern (with different resolution, different lighting, optimized for grayscale rendering or whatever), these should be associated with the same id.

I agree.

bvbmatze wrote:

Ok, good point, that makes sense. But what happens, if there are various images for a single ID? Is it then in the responsibility of the renderer/viewer which to choose?

Why don't chose randomly from set/group. In this way each building well be looking differently?

bvbmatze wrote:
Tordanik wrote:

Second, the tagging should use key names consistent with the normal material tagging. One option is to always append a "texture" to the more abstract surface description, which would produce roof:material:texture, building:material:texture, surface:texture and so on.

Ok, we can do it this way. I wasn't aware of the existing material tagging conventions.

Do we really want to assign textures id's to osm data?

bvbmatze wrote:

I am not sure if I get your point, but this seems to me like a solution which is too much tailored for your plugin. (please correct me if I'm wrong :-))
Please don't get me wrong, your tool is brilliant, but regarding the tagging, we should clearly go for a viewer/editor independent solution.

Sorry I wanted only to show how to configure plugin and test new textures. May by it shouldn’t be in this topic. I certainly should not concern those that mapping.


bvbmatze wrote:

As always, the process of "tagging" a building texture must be as easy as possible for the mapper.
In my opinion, there should be only two easy steps:
1) Looking up a suitable texture in the online repository
2) Tagging the object with the appropriate texture ID

Why not to use tags roof:material and building:material eg.
roof:material=brick
building:material=roofTitle

Unless we realy want to use the exact texture ID like this:
roof:material.texture=brick1234
building:material.texture=roofTitle9321

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#15 2012-04-15 23:12:36

Re: Texture Library

Hind created a site to collect textures and uploades some Russia-related textures:
http://openworldtextures.org/

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#16 2012-04-16 05:28:10

Hind
Moderator
From: Moscow
Registered: 2009-05-25
Posts: 3,716

Re: Texture Library

vvoovv, I can write about OWT by myself. smile

This is not for Russia-related textures only, but for all. Try to upload, then you see it. :3
Also, there is only public domain textures now.

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#17 2012-04-16 11:34:17

Re: Texture Library

Hind wrote:

vvoovv, I can write about OWT by myself. smile

Hind:
Great, just do it! smile

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#18 2012-04-16 21:08:53

Re: Texture Library

So, umm.

When I was driving the car today, I tried to look at some buildings, and thought for a second what it would take to make a good texture for it. There's so much variation, that most buildings need several different "tiles", and they're hardly ever reusable in other buildings. But maybe you prove me wrong smile Any thoughts on the numbers?

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#19 2012-04-16 21:32:21

Re: Texture Library

Thats true,
I wrote already in the Russian Community: we have 4 possible ways:
1. Do nothing ( done)
2. Do strong generalized texturing ( only 10-20 different textures for everything) Pro: Simple and easy tu understand Con: Looks like shit
3. Do exactly textures for every possible facade (impossible because millions of textures)
4. For typical, not so important buildings the use of multitexturing=background texture and exactly positioned doors, windows and other elements. Pro: Few hunderts of textures are enough Con: The software for should be developed first.

I think, 4 is the good answer and for very important and known unique buildings 3.

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#20 2012-04-16 21:59:29

Re: Texture Library

Guys,
take a look: http://scenery.x-plane.com/library.php? … acades.php
This is approach no. 2.: Nobody see, the textures are generalizes, on the first view from top it looks absolutely cool, but when You´re on the street with mobile navi or augmented reality, You are unhappy about results You see.

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#21 2012-04-16 22:57:52

Re: Texture Library

Isn't there a final option 5, which is to take a photo of the building and warp/fit it to the building model (as seen in Sketchup).  I guess this is doable for the most important buildings, then we default to 3 then 4 then 2 then 1.

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#22 2012-04-16 23:31:34

Re: Texture Library

3 then 4 then 2 then 1

Hi Oliver, could You explain it again with other words?

Under Your 5 I understood 3

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#23 2012-04-17 08:06:24

Hind
Moderator
From: Moscow
Registered: 2009-05-25
Posts: 3,716

Re: Texture Library

Sorry for my english :3
I think that the multitexture should be described by a formulas containing a placement algorithm and an occurrence frequency of each subtexture.
Also, subtextures can have an alpha channel for soft mixing with background subtexture or just for adding individual details like as air-conditioners and graffities. big_smile

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#24 2012-04-17 08:37:45

Re: Texture Library

Of course Hind.
One thing more:
I still think about composite textures. Let me a little time, I describe the idea detailed and email it to You and other interested people.

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#25 2012-04-20 11:20:25

Re: Texture Library

I wrote the page:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Seamless_Textures

I hope sombody can help to translate it into enlish. Hind, Could Yo translate it into russian and put Your input? I mean, You´re verya professional with texture making. Maybe you have some comments, references? Please feel free to add information to this page.

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