Consensus on road numbering and classification?

dear all in Greece,

I write on behalf of the Data Working Group who have been contacted with concern over road numbering and classification changes in Greece. For example the following changesets,

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/30076250 - re-numbering sections of national roads, such as in the history here

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/31117696 - more recently, adding a ref: , which will render, on a postcode based scheme

http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/29581515 - also some re-organisation of road types

We seek evidence that others in the Greek mapping community are broadly in accordance with the changes, having heard few voices so far.

Please add your voice below if you have an opinion on this matter, even a neutral one.

I add my neutral voice here. I have not yet dealed with road numbering and classification yet.
Which are these changes?

There are currently four types of roads in Greece: Motorways, Motor-Roads, National Roads and Provincial Roads. It appears that the Greek wiki page on the road classification was changed by JayCBR without consultation with other users (not including me), but according to http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=WikiProject_Greece&oldid=1155935, it should be “highway=motorway” for motorways, “highway=trunk” for motor-roads, “highway=primary” for national roads and “highway=secondary” for provincial roads and old national roads. If road quality is an issue, then this is where the tags “surface” and “lanes” come into play.

“highway=secondary” used to be just between towns but the existence of provincial roads meant that secondary was the next available rank to assign them to. “highway=tertiary” is for connecting all villages and hamlets to the wider network.

Road numbers for national roads are confusing, but it seems that the 1963 system of road numbering is in greater use than most of the 1998 system. Provincial road numbers do exist and they appear in recent legislation, according to my research at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Provincial_roads_in_Greece, but I have seen no evidence to date that provincial road numbers are prefixed by postcodes and this is why I am sceptical of it. This is why I use “ΕΠxx”. I consider that “ΠEΟxx” is used for old but significant alignments of national roads.

Recently, JayCBR added suffixes to the “EΟxx” roads, causing more confusion as in most cases the “EΟxx” in question takes over the new alignment and the old alignment becomes “ΠEΟxx” if it remains significant enough.

One of the reasons I objected to JayCBR’s reclassification of the road system last month was that his approach made road systems in towns like Larissa a mess, causing the routing to act oddly on Sat-navs and the like. I learn from other countries’ approaches to make sensible use of the limited data that we have under compatible sources.

Quite recently JayCBR has also been abbreviating the names of roads (example: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/161832692/history)) even though it is not a good idea under the “Not just for the renderer” rule of good thumb.

That is my side of the story. I want to hear how other mappers other than just JayCBR approaches this topic. blackdevilkostas may have some interesting thoughts that may be useful to this thread.

Sorry, but I will write in Greek, my English writing sucks. (someone to translate?)

Και η δική μου άποψη είναι, ότι δεν μπορείς να δίνεις ονομασίες αυθαίρετα. Αν δεν έχεις στα χέρια σου επίσημα δεδομένα, καλύτερα είναι να μην κάνεις τίποτα.
Αρχίζοντας από τα πιο παλιά, θα πώ ότι δεν συμφωνώ ούτε με τα έγγραφα του 1963 που χρησιμοποιεί ο Amaroussi, για τον απλό λόγο του ότι είναι παρωχημένα.
Πολλοί δρόμοι που περιέχονται σε αυτό το έγγραφο, είτε δεν κατασκευάστηκαν ποτέ, είτε έχασαν τη σημασία τους γιατί άλλοι νέοι δρόμοι κατασκευάστηκαν, ή απλά έμειναν χωματόδρομοι.

Στα σημερινά τώρα, το έγγραφο που μου έστειλε ο JayCBR, το βρήκα αρκετά συμπαθητικό (στα γρήγορα που το κοίταξα, λόγω έλλειψης χρόνου) είναι αρκετά κατατοπιστικό, όσο θα μπορούσε να είναι ένα κείμενο χωρίς τους απαραίτητους χάρτες.
Έχει όμως χιλιομετρικές αποστάσεις, κάτι που βοηθάει πολύ, αλλά θέλει αρκετή δουλειά.

Οι μόνοι δρόμοι στην Ελλάδα που έχουν γράμμα πριν τον αριθμό (στις πινακίδες τουλάχιστον) είναι οι αυτοκινητόδρομοι,Α1, Α21 κλπ, όλοι οι υπόλοιποι είναι σκέτοι αριθμοί.
Αλλά με βρίσκει πιό σύμφωνο το στυλ ΕΟ1, ΠΕΟ1, ΕΠ23 κλπ, παρά το εντελώς αυθαίρετο με τον ΤΚ πριν τον αριθμό του δρόμου.

Γιάννης.

For the record, both the 1963 and 1998 lists would require discretion because some roads in the 1998 list were later given motorway numbers (The A6 was EO110 according to the 1998 list). The Greek road lists are known for being very optimistic, wherein it believes that everything would be built to plan.

The numbering postal code+number seems very strange to me. I have not seen it anywhere. I don’t know if it is correct or not. It would be nice if we all agreed to adopt the same numbering system.

Also it would like to advise everyone who puts reference number to put it in Greek language, otherwise Osmand says for ΕΟ57 “Στρίψτε στην Ι ΟΟΥ FIFTYSEVEN”, which is annoying.

Why are we writing in English here? It is users:Greece subforum and we should write in Greek. Except if someone here does not understand Greek, is this the case?

καταρχήν δεν έχει νόημα να μιλάμε αγγλικά πιστεύω

θα σας εξηγήσω τον τρόπο σκέψης
από πάντα μου άρεσαν οι δορυφορικές φωτό, οι χάρτες, οι δρόμοι κτλ και το openstreet δίνει τη δυνατότητα να φτιάξουμε ακριβείς και ενημερωμένους χάρτες με πληροφορίες που δεν βρίσκεις αλλού

το σύστημα αρίθμησης είναι απαράδεκτο από όποια μεριά και αν το δεις, οπότε δεν μπορούμε να βασιζόμαστε σ αυτό για κατηγοριοποίηση
πιστεύω είναι πιο σωστό η κατηγορία του δρόμου να εξαρτάται από την αφετηρία και τον προορισμό (ώστε να ξέρουμε πού πάμε), αλλά και με την προτεραιότητά του (δεν μπορεί ένας primary να έχει στοπ σε διασταύρωση με tertiary)

αν είναι να χρησιμοποιήσουμε αρίθμηση καλύτερα να χρησιμοποιούμε το έγγραφο του 1998 (πολύ πιο λεπτομερές από του 1963 αλλά πάλι με ασάφειες σε πολλά σημεία), στο wiki έχω κάνει μια λίστα των εθνικών οδών βγαλμένη από αυτό το έγγραφο

τώρα για τις επαρχιακές οδούς τι να πω δεν θα έπρεπε καν να τις αναφέρουμε (δεν υπάρχει πουθενά σήμανση με αυτές), ενώ το έγγραφο του 1956 είναι τόσο παλιό που τα χωριά έχουν αλλάξει ονόματα ή έχουν εγκαταληφθεί, ενώ πολλοί δρόμοι δεν υπάρχουν καν ή είναι χωματόδρομοι). Το οτι έχουν ξεχωριστά νούμερα για κάθε νομό μπερδεύει τα πράγματα ακόμη περισσότερο. Αν είναι να τις αναφέρουμε καλό είναι να υπάρχει κάποιος γεωγραφικός προσδιορισμός (βλέποντας το νούμερο με το ΤΚ καταλαβαίνεις αμέσως σε ποιό νομό είσαι) οκ είναι αυθαίρετο αλλά κανείς εκτός από εμάς εδώ δεν ξέρει για την ύπαρξή τους

γνώμη μου είναι η κατηγοριοποίηση να είναι αυτή, ανεξάρτητα από αριθμούς:
primary = οδοί που συνδέουν πόλεις (>10 000)
secondary = οδοί που συνδέουν κωμοπόλεις (>2 000) ή παλιές εθνικές οδοί
tertiary = οδοί που συνδέουν χωριά ή παλιές επαρχιακές οδοί

ΥΓ1: μίλησα με άρκετους στο osm irc και μου είπαν ότι είναι υπερβολικό και αχρείαστο να κάνουμε relations για δρόμους, και οτι δεν φτιάχτηκαν γι’αυτό (είναι προτιμότερο για δρομολόγια μέσων μαζικής μεταφοράς, ποδηλατόδρομους, ενώ θα μπορούσε να χρησιμοποιηθεί για το δίκτυο ευρωπαικών οδών)

ΥΓ2:γιατί ακριβώς βάζουμε το ΕΟ δίπλα στο νούμερο; δεν το έχω δει έτσι γραμμένο πουθενά, ασε που δημιουργεί και αυτό το πρόβλημα με το osmand

ΥΓ3:όσον αφορά τις συντομογραφίες πίστευα οτι είναι καλύτερα να είναι μικρότερο το όνομα γι αυτό και έβαζα στο name ΕΟ αντί για Εθνική Οδός ταδε, αλλά από τότε αναγνώρισα οτι ειναι λάθος και μετά από μια επιχείρηση σκούπα έχω διορθώσει όλους τους δρόμους από Έβρο μέχρι Θεσσαλονίκη

ΥΓ4:θα παρακαλούσα τον amaroussi να μιλάει μαζί μου πρώτα για οποιοδήποτε πρόβλημα έχει αντί να με σχολιάζει σε δημόσια φορουμ

Ο τρόπος αρίθμησης ΤΚ+νούμερο ακούγεται λογικός από τη στιγμή που έχουν ξεχωριστά νούμερα για κάθε νομό.

το διψήφιο πρόθεμα το προτείνω για τις επαρχιακές οδούς μόνο, όχι για τις εθνικές

επίσης στο έγγραφο του 1998 είναι κοινή πρακτική να αναφέρει την αρχική χάραξη ως ΕΟ1, την πιο καινούργια ως ΕΟ1α και διάφορες εναλλακτικές ως ΕΟ1β, εΟ1γ κτλ
το οποίο βρίσκω πολύ καλύτερο από το ΠΕΟ ΝΕΟ

η νέα κατηγοριοποίηση είναι για να βοηθάει δεν μπορώ να καταλάβω πως ακριβώς χάλασα την Λάρισα

You might like to check this document: http://www.egnatia.eu/Files/Adverts/5027_sow.pdf

The map at the end of the document, from Egnatia Odos SA, seems to show evidence that the ISO codes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166-2:GR) are used instead of the TK codes.

i have thought about iso codes before, the problem is there are codes like A1, 01 ,02 etc

what if a newsletter is published abolishing prefectures? as you see they assign letters to regions

maybe we should ask egnatia where they found the map, although is possible they allocated the numbers

Regional units are virtually similar to Prefectures and a lot of prefecture-specific standards still live on today.

At present I cannot think of anything better than ΕΠ. I do not think there is anything wrong about using ΕΠ#, because they are similar to S# (State roads) in the Netherlands and SH# (State highway) in India. I do not believe that there is a need to make any artificial distinction, as long as each list is confined to the prefecture.

In my opinion, I originally retained the road relations for documentation reasons, to track the progress of the mapping, but that was with the 1963 system, before you discovered the 1998 and possibly current system.

i just say iso codes can change with a single newsletter, postal codes dont

i was thinking there is no reason to put letter prefixes like EO and ΕΠ in ref (the only signs with prefixes are motorway like A1,A2 etc), no reason to mess with voice commands

pls consider a different classification, independent from numbers, the current situation is confusing (at least dont make provincial roads secondary, most of them are like minor)

I have suggested the further details, such as my draft at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Amaroussi#Greek_road_hierarchy_review (permanent link: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=User:Amaroussi&oldid=1182147)).

I think population is a bit too broad. Purpose should be considered too.

Until I made the draft on the wiki, I had shown reluctance towards such idea due to the lack of details other than population. Now I have made the draft I have a better idea.

We should not overuse one type of highway for every occurrence of a specific layout, out of respect for the concept of network hierarchy.

It is important not to overuse one type of highway like “primary”, like in Thessaloniki, so that the map is well organised and presented.

The proposal on the wiki needs to be refined further before it gets implemented, to prevent any misunderstandings by future editors.

As long as the discussion is written down in places like the forums or talk-gr, rather than just the IRC, then there will be solid evidence of the changes, and less confusion.

i must admit your table is very confusing as it is, try to make it simpler

my proposal is here:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Greece (under roads in greece)

-as you see its not based completely on population…what else do you mean by purpose?
-primary roads for connecting cities, former prefecture capitals and POI (national airports, major seaports and archaelogical sites like Olympia or Epidavros. Also primary could be the major road(s) in a city (which also serves through traffic)
-secondary for towns (over 2000 on land, over 1000 on islands), municipal seats and rest of POI, also the major road in a town
-tertiary for connecting villages between them or with other roads, also the major road in the village (most provincial roads fall in this category or lower)

if there are roads which serve more traffic than their type should, we can classify them accordingly

i also have done a list of national highways according to 1998 registry:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Greece/National_Highway

i dont reclassify roads without a plan (in Thessaloniki and other cities primary roads serve most of the traffic, thats why they are primary

I think one of the reasons we are not doing this right is that we are constantly thinking about all the possibilities with or without adhering to the system of National and Provincial roads. At the moment, I am thinking that motorroads are far too complicated to be taken seriously, and if that is the case given that the motorroad sign is being used randomly, the trunk roads should represent limited-access highways or main intercity roads in general, with limited access highways being tagged with “motorroad=yes”.

I hope you do not mind me taking a bit of time to think this through before posting a new draft?

as i understand there are 3 possible directions: leave them as they are, make them my way, or your way

i think its wrong to categorize todays roads according to some numbers assigned 50 years ago or more

a trunk road is a term used in the UK, not such thing exists here
other countries use the trunk road tag to label expressways or motorroads (which by definition are a step below motorways)
in Greece it is unclear which roads fall in the motorroad category, so no reason to tag them as such

we can use the trunk road tag to label high-speed roads inferior to motorways (like Orestiada - Ormenio, Kilkis bypass, Thessaloniki - Chalkidona, Chalastra - Polykastro, Ptolemaida - Amyntaio etc) as it is now

Hello,

I am prepared to agree on ending the 1963 system and use the 1998 system only, but that would leave some structuring issues.

I am thinking that non-motorroad EO routes should remain primary by default, but parallel roads, such as the ΕΟ104, or any stub that “goes nowhere” (sic) like ΕΟ65γ, should be secondary. Unnumbered major roads should also be secondary.

At the moment I am thinking more about the structure of the network. I am still thinking about how to address Larissa and Katerini, where there are bypasses around the centres that should be taken into account, unless the bypass has a unique number.

The end structure could be something like Berlin (https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=12/52.5063/13.4083). Towns like Larissa and Katerini could looke a bit like Imola in Italy (https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/44.3503/11.7291), where the roads do not go into the centre if there are bypasses that would otherwise be unnumbered. I know that towns are becoming increasingly interested in keeping motor traffic out of city centres, hence why those bypasses existed in the first place.

Abandoned numbers of the 1963 system could be tagged with the key “old_ref”.

There is no doubt that all the refs in Greece should use the Hellenic alphabet and not the Latin alphabet.

I cannot agree on the postcode system as I have found no evidence of them in government documents. Hence we probably have to stay with ΕΠ for now.

I am for keeping the provincial roads secondary because that is the legal classification by the Greek government and not by me.

However, to allay your concerns, we could give greater focus towards using the surface (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface) and smoothness (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:smoothness) tags on Greek roads: I think that we overlooked the possibility of mapping the road condition, and instead we put the blame on the numbering system, causing lots of problems. The two tags related to the road condition are there for a reason, to warn drivers of the road condition.

this is starting to look like the syriza - eu negotiation (the one is proposing things and the other not want to change a thing)

i thought the postal code system would be nice, but since you disagree i ll make them ΕΠ, not secondary though

i tried to identify these provincial roads in Thrace and Macedonia, and it was challenging (unfinished roads, non-existent roads, unpaved tracks, abandoned villages) and were the road was there was narrow with no lines leading to very small villages, so no traffic

about legal classification…i dont remember the government stating anywhere that we should label them as secondary in openstreetmap

i cant express myself properly about road smoothness