Road Route Relations

SunCobalt · 2012-08-02 20:24:02

Hi,

Christophorus had this idea a while ago....How about put the major roads into a route relation? I was not sure about it but found it in Poland, where we are helping to remap the license change damage. I have made 3 examples based on how Poland is doing it

Autoput
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/2325322

Magistralni put
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/2325323

Regionalni put
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/2325324

One guy from Poland has made a nice tool to check for common errors (disconnects etc)
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM … ajor_Roads

The tool is available and could be set up for Serbia....just in case Miloš runs out of other bugs to fix

kmilos · 2012-08-03 19:10:16

Very good proposal, but IMHO we should maybe prioritise public transport and E-road network relations before these?

SunCobalt · 2012-08-03 20:02:13

sure, I can do the E-Roads. Unfortunately I have no idea about the public transport system in Serbia. I thought about adding bus routes in Vrsac but failed to find information. Public transport routes are a bit fiddly, everything has to be in the right order and there is no system support for that. It then looks like this
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/1745035
http://www.openbusmap.org/?zoom=15&lat= … layers=TBT
And it is often damaged by beginners

Are you fine with the suggested tags for the routes? If I touch the E-roads then it is only a small step to create the srb:national/regional road relations at the same time. Afaik, E-roads are tagged as country wide relations and then added to a super-relation, right? I have never edited one.

SunCobalt · 2012-08-03 21:56:54

it seems class A E-roads are already there...partly damaged. Class B E-roads seems to be missing. except E 662 which looks a bit odd. Due to own bad experiences, I will not edit anything south of the river Ibar, so someone else should fix it there....if wanted
Here is any overview about E-roads
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Wiki … ad_network

putevi klase A:
Put E65: (Crna Gora) - Špiljani (Opština Tutin) - Kosovska Mitrovica - Priština - Đeneral Janković - (Makedonija)
Seems this relation was not broken into parts...you can't load it at the website
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/33232

Put E70: (Hrvatska) - Batrovci - Beograd - Vršac - Vatin - (Rumunija).
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/2195415

Put E75: (Mađarska) - Horgoš - Subotica - Novi Sad - Inđija - Beograd - Pojate - Niš - Grdelica - Mijatovac - (Makedonija).
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/2093778

Put E80: (Crna Gora) - Špiljani (Opština Tutin) - Kosovska Mitrovica - Priština - Podujevo - Prokuplje - Niš - Pirot - Gradina (Opština Dimitrovgrad) - (Bugarska)
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/1999546

putevi klase B
Put E662: Subotica - Sombor - Bezdan - (Hrvatska)
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/2194571

Put E761: (Bosna i Hercegovina) - Kotroman - Požega - Pojate - Paraćin - Zaječar - Vrška Čuka - (Bugarska)

-> Does not exist according to the OSM Wiki

Put E763 ("Put za more"): Beograd - Lazarevac - Gornji Milanovac - Čačak - Požega - Nova Varoš - Prijepolje - Gostun (Opština Prijepolje)- (Crna Gora)

-> Does not exist according to the OSM Wiki

Put E771: (Rumunija) - Kladovo - Negotin - Zaječar - Niš - Priština[тражи се извор од 10. 2009.]

-> Does not exist according to the OSM Wiki

Put E851: (Albanija) - Prizren - Priština

-> Does not exist according to the OSM Wiki

Last edited by SunCobalt (2012-08-03 21:59:04)

kmilos · 2012-08-03 23:26:27

SunCobalt wrote:

Put E65: (Crna Gora) - Špiljani (Opština Tutin) - Kosovska Mitrovica - Priština - Đeneral Janković - (Makedonija)
Seems this relation was not broken into parts...you can't load it at the website
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/33232

You mind creating a superrelation and splitting this one up?

Put E70: (Hrvatska) - Batrovci - Beograd - Vršac - Vatin - (Rumunija).
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/2195415
Put E75: (Mađarska) - Horgoš - Subotica - Novi Sad - Inđija - Beograd - Pojate - Niš - Grdelica - Mijatovac - (Makedonija).
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/2093778
Put E80: (Crna Gora) - Špiljani (Opština Tutin) - Kosovska Mitrovica - Priština - Podujevo - Prokuplje - Niš - Pirot - Gradina (Opština Dimitrovgrad) - (Bugarska)
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/1999546

It seems the trend is to also separate the directions into individual relations like http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/2133091

I can do this for E70, E75 and E80.

Then we move onto class B...

SunCobalt · 2012-08-04 09:16:30

kmilos wrote:

SunCobalt wrote:
Put E65: (Crna Gora) - Špiljani (Opština Tutin) - Kosovska Mitrovica - Priština - Đeneral Janković - (Makedonija)
Seems this relation was not broken into parts...you can't load it at the website
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/33232
You mind creating a superrelation and splitting this one up?

oh, This includes more than 3000 ways with 43000 nodes. Have started to fix the gaps in Serbia, lets see if I can finish it today

kmilos · 2012-08-04 11:48:21

@SunCobalt
Could just start by declaring that relation "the parent" and taking the Serbian section out to a new route relation, I'm sure we could find people in other countries to do their bit.

SunCobalt · 2012-08-04 11:57:29

I have created and fixed bi-directional country E65 relations for SRB and MNE....
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/2328747
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?relation=2328830

...deleted the ways from the E65 monster-relation and added the two relations back. Doing that for the whole E65 from Greece to Sweden ist something for long winter nights. I am not sure I understand the rational for seperate relations for each direction, except it might be easer to check if the relation is broken. With forward and backwards roles added -what I did- it should be a question of some minutes to create these single direction relations

Last edited by SunCobalt (2012-08-04 14:56:13)

SunCobalt · 2012-08-04 13:41:50

created a super-relation and single country sub-relations for E761
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/2328885
Serbia is complete, in BiH I am not sure where the M5/E761 really is

SunCobalt · 2012-08-04 15:13:49

created single bi-directional relation for E763
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/2329192
I was not sure where in Belgrade the route begins, so I have started at the motorway. If anyone knows something different, please let me know. I don't think we need a super relation as it goes only some km in MNE.

I want to start with 771. The english Wikipedia says it goes from Romania to Niš
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_route_E771

but the Serbian Wikipedia says it goes via Niš to Priština?
http://sr.wikipedia.org/sr-el/Evropska_ … nih_puteva

misabrzi · 2012-08-04 15:31:52

SunCobalt wrote:

created single bi-directional relation for E763
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/2329192
I was not sure where in Belgrade the route begins, so I have started at the motorway. If anyone knows something different, please let me know. I don't think we need a super relation as it goes only some km in MNE.
I want to start with 771. The english Wikipedia says it goes from Romania to Niš
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_route_E771
but the Serbian Wikipedia says it goes via Niš to Priština?
http://sr.wikipedia.org/sr-el/Evropska_ … nih_puteva

Oh yes, this is relatively common problem, we don't have enough reliable resources and often they are contradictorily. I also wandered where E 771 ends, and in the same time where M 25 goes (trough Niš or around it), but you can end it here http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=43.31 … 5&layers=M just to be safe .

Last edited by misabrzi (2012-08-04 15:37:31)

SunCobalt · 2012-08-04 15:36:00

misabrzi wrote:

SunCobalt wrote:
created single bi-directional relation for E763
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/2329192
I was not sure where in Belgrade the route begins, so I have started at the motorway. If anyone knows something different, please let me know. I don't think we need a super relation as it goes only some km in MNE.
I want to start with 771. The english Wikipedia says it goes from Romania to Niš
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_route_E771
but the Serbian Wikipedia says it goes via Niš to Priština?
http://sr.wikipedia.org/sr-el/Evropska_ … nih_puteva
Oh yes, this is relatively common problem, we don't have enough reliable resources and often they are contradictorily. I also wandered where E 771 ends and in the same time where M 25 ends, but if you decide to go with this you can end it here http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=43.31 … 5&layers=M to be safe .

I had luck and the E771 relation was already there but not on the OSM-Wiki. And it ends excatly where you wrote
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?relation=1086284

misabrzi · 2012-08-04 15:46:59

So English wiki was right, cool . However on a related note, right there before that junction there are few road signs some of them are new some of them are old, on one of the old ones M25 continues right but now that's local road. So what I'm trying to say is, even with data on the ground, things are not that clear where is what.

branko1979 · 2012-08-04 15:50:03

I suggest Thomas as President of Serbia!
Or, at least one street in Serbia should bear his name.

misabrzi · 2012-08-04 15:53:58

branko1979 wrote:

I suggest Thomas as President of Serbia!
Or, at least one street in Serbia should bear his name.

Eheheh, Or at least Minister for Infrastructure or Transportation or something like that

SunCobalt · 2012-08-04 16:32:35

no, politican, thanks, not in Serbia, not in Germany or elsewhere. Before you can become politican, you must get your brain removed from your head
back to the E771. Another english Wikipedia pages says "section between Niš and Priština is co-signed with E80"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highways_in_Serbia
Anyone able to find out where it really ends?

mpele · 2012-08-04 20:55:42

What is the purpose of relations of this kind? Are they used during rendering or during navigation? I understand when relations are used for public transport but why the roads are connected in relations?

SunCobalt · 2012-08-04 21:37:26

mpele wrote:

What is the purpose of relations of this kind? Are they used during rendering or during navigation? I understand when relations are used for public transport but why the roads are connected in relations?

Well, good question. It is not that obvious as public transport relations. First it is similar to borders. You would not need a relation to have a border rendered or in navigation. If you ask for example "what is within..." than you better have a relation. Something similar, but less common, you can ask for routes..."what is along the E123" or "how long is the E123" i.e. have we mapped all roads. Or if you want to render the european E-network only.
Almost everything works without a relation. You can tag ways along a bus route with bus_lines=1;2;3, borders with maybe country_left=Serbia, country_right=Romania and road routes with their identifiers and let the database sort it out. But it is easier if you have a (partly sorted) collection of things.

And one important reason is that there are many tools that can check relations of all kind and make it much easier to keep an eye on things, that would be very hard to monitor if not added to a relation for example road routes over some 100km

SunCobalt · 2012-08-04 22:05:28

by the way Peđa...Any chances that you set up the monitoring tool (not for E-roads but for M first and maybe R)?
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSMonitor

mpele · 2012-08-05 09:04:16

SunCobalt wrote:

And one important reason is that there are many tools that can check relations of all kind and make it much easier to keep an eye on things, that would be very hard to monitor if not added to a relation for example road routes over some 100km

Thanks

SunCobalt wrote:

by the way Peđa...Any chances that you set up the monitoring tool (not for E-roads but for M first and maybe R)?
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSMonitor

I looked at the code and it relays on PostgreSQL database with OSM data. So, I think that the main problem is the computer/server. Do we have any available?
I have no experience with Ruby and Wiki but I hope that with Ppawel's help it could be easy done.

SunCobalt · 2012-08-05 10:00:20

mpele wrote:

I looked at the code and it relays on PostgreSQL database with OSM data. So, I think that the main problem is the computer/server. Do we have any available?

yes I only would like to understand the osmosis replication better...wether all or only country specific updates are feed into the DB. Maybe it is better to keep a local serbia.osm.pbf file up-to-date with
osmosis --rri --simc --rb serbia.osm.pbf --ac --bp clipIncompleteEntities=yes file=serbia.poly --wb new.osm.pbf &&
rm serbia.osm.pbf && mv new.osm.pbf serbia.osm.pbf

and drop and re-add the database once a day. Will probably take less than 10 mins for Serbia

take a look at
/home/thomas/deadends/update_pl.sh

kmilos · 2012-08-05 13:06:30

Hm, maybe I was wrong about splitting the directions? Those examples seem to be further geographical section splits, rather then separating directions...

kmilos · 2012-08-05 13:15:52

Btw, maybe the following can help too:

http://www.putevi-srbije.rs/pdf/serbia_ … l_road.pdf

misabrzi · 2012-08-05 13:43:33

SunCobalt wrote:

no, politican, thanks, not in Serbia, not in Germany or elsewhere. Before you can become politican, you must get your brain removed from your head
back to the E771. Another english Wikipedia pages says "section between Niš and Priština is co-signed with E80"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highways_in_Serbia
Anyone able to find out where it really ends?

That article is referring to http://www.putevi-srbije.rs/pdf/serbia_ … l_road.pdf as source (here is JPG version of the same http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/4853/mapaputeva.jpg). There you can see part of E-80 between Niš and Priština overlaps with E-771, so all wiki articles that say E-771 end in Priština, probably uses same source. Even though this map comes from official site it might be outdated or simply incorrect in some parts.

And something else I noticed, in ref tags, numbers and letters are separated by space. On our wiki page http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Serb … .2A_oznake there are no spaces in names but on English E road wiki http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Wiki … e_relation there are spaces. Further more it says E # ref is assigned to relation not to road, and I saw roads with E number on them selves, is this correct or should be changed.

Last edited by misabrzi (2012-08-05 13:45:49)

misabrzi · 2012-08-05 13:48:13

kmilos wrote:

Btw, maybe the following can help too:
http://www.putevi-srbije.rs/pdf/serbia_ … l_road.pdf

I was thinking the same

Oh and one more thing, just to illustrate reliability of different sources http://www.geosrbija.rs/rga/default.asp … LOverlays=, here you can see same road marked as E80#E752 M25, witch is obviously outdated.

Last edited by misabrzi (2012-08-19 14:36:51)

OpenStreetMap Forum

#1 2012-08-02 20:24:02

Road Route Relations

#2 2012-08-03 19:10:16

Re: Road Route Relations

#3 2012-08-03 20:02:13

Re: Road Route Relations

#4 2012-08-03 21:56:54

Re: Road Route Relations

#5 2012-08-03 23:26:27

Re: Road Route Relations

#6 2012-08-04 09:16:30

Re: Road Route Relations

#7 2012-08-04 11:48:21

Re: Road Route Relations

#8 2012-08-04 11:57:29

Re: Road Route Relations

#9 2012-08-04 13:41:50

Re: Road Route Relations

#10 2012-08-04 15:13:49

Re: Road Route Relations

#11 2012-08-04 15:31:52

Re: Road Route Relations

#12 2012-08-04 15:36:00

Re: Road Route Relations

#13 2012-08-04 15:46:59

Re: Road Route Relations

#14 2012-08-04 15:50:03

Re: Road Route Relations

#15 2012-08-04 15:53:58

Re: Road Route Relations

#16 2012-08-04 16:32:35

Re: Road Route Relations

#17 2012-08-04 20:55:42

Re: Road Route Relations

#18 2012-08-04 21:37:26

Re: Road Route Relations

#19 2012-08-04 22:05:28

Re: Road Route Relations

#20 2012-08-05 09:04:16

Re: Road Route Relations

#21 2012-08-05 10:00:20

Re: Road Route Relations

#22 2012-08-05 13:06:30

Re: Road Route Relations

#23 2012-08-05 13:15:52

Re: Road Route Relations

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Re: Road Route Relations

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Re: Road Route Relations

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